Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby picklish » Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:32 am

We're wandering miles of thread here (sorry Modifier!), but as far as I understand you when you say "The incoming stream of information is constant, but the conscious attaching of the current streams to emotional content is mostly held for voluntary control."

However, I don't think that most of the income stream is held in conscious control. There's the focus of looking at the screen to see that the letters I am typing aren't mispelled, and the sensation of touching the keys, but the awareness of where the keys are is a memory function, as is surroundings of the office I am sitting in, the noises of the street outside, the feel of the chair that I'm sitting in - I may be conscious off it, but its more like my memory (some cases short term memory, some cases longer term) is telling me it's there.

Then there's all the other things going on, my slightly blocked ear, an argument I had with my girlfriend, whether I'll have time for my guitar lesson this week - my brain is working away on these processes in the background

Then the animalistic drives of hunger, tiredness etc

It appears to me that lucid dreaming only slightly affects the upper one, the focus and sensation, direct and immediate. But I'm not sure that it's related to the others
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby somnonaut » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:28 pm

Ahh, but yet ALL of those things are processed and can, at any given time, be augmented with memories or other additional sensory information (e.g. only listen for horns of cars I know.) Everything about the waking day is processed, yes some of it on sort of on a sub-conscious level (eg. our body position -"Proprioception") but it can reach a level of conscious thought either by increasing intensity (when leg starts to go numb sitting on uncomfortable chair) or by conscious desire.
My point is that we are staring at the workings of the constant tension in every process of the body, including sleep vs. wake every moment awake or asleep. And "disorders of sleep" are really only manifestations of how out of balance for any given state (wake or asleep) does the tension get (too much sleep in your wake, or too much wake in you sleep.) This is what Alpha/Delta sleep is. Too much wake in your sleep.

See, we brought the conversation around to the beginning.

And, we are still left with no better a measure of alpha/delta. Z-ratio would mimic what we do with our eyes in that, we modify what we consider to be strict SWA waves, and augment our scoring for such epochs. The Alpha does get in the way of zero crossing counting for SWA recognition so it can have a profound effect on the visual categorization/identification of SWA. The z-ratio value per second would be modified by the alpha contribution and push the z-ratio value up towards zero, doing the same as visual scoring. But again, z-ratio IS NOT sleep staging. It is Sleep/Wake GAUGING.
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby Modifier1 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:27 pm

Hello everyone,

Apologies for abruptly disappearing for a while, I've had a few health issues this month.

The talk on alpha delta sleep is certainly interesting. I did another study last night, and from what I can tell, is littered with quite prominent alpha delta sleep. There are also multiple Alpha intrusions during NREM2, but not enough to warrant an arousal to NREM1. Last night was subjectively poor sleep quality, with myself waking up with occasional difficulty breathing, and intense vibrations and shock feelings throughout my body. I've had this happen multiple times before, typically during paralyses or just before paralyses. I had no paralyses last night.

If any of you would be willing to have a quick once over at a 5 hours recording that would be helpful. It would be useful to have a second input regarding quite long alpha intrusions and alpha delta sleep, and any other abnormalities that you may find. I can upload in .EDF format.

I do have a copy of Rembrandt, although I'm unfamiliar with the layout. Is there anyway to use an automatic analyzer on my waveforms, as my version of Remlogic does not support an automated scoring assistance, which would take a huge workload out of manually scoring everything.
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby Modifier1 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:46 pm

alpha_delta.png
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alpha_delta_close_up.png
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Alpha Delta?
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby Modifier1 » Tue Mar 13, 2018 6:53 pm

Alpha_intrusion.png
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Long alpha intrusion during NREM2?
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby RayMeece » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:20 am

Those all look like wake to me..... jus sayin'.
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby RayMeece » Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:22 am

Alpha intrusion, or Alpha-Delta, is usually bursts of Alpha,riding on the underlying frequencies. These examples are clear Alpha for the majority of the epochs. Score 'em as Wake.
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby picklish » Wed Mar 14, 2018 11:25 am

Modifier1 wrote:Hello everyone,

Apologies for abruptly disappearing for a while, I've had a few health issues this month.

The talk on alpha delta sleep is certainly interesting. I did another study last night, and from what I can tell, is littered with quite prominent alpha delta sleep. There are also multiple Alpha intrusions during NREM2, but not enough to warrant an arousal to NREM1. Last night was subjectively poor sleep quality, with myself waking up with occasional difficulty breathing, and intense vibrations and shock feelings throughout my body. I've had this happen multiple times before, typically during paralyses or just before paralyses. I had no paralyses last night.

If any of you would be willing to have a quick once over at a 5 hours recording that would be helpful. It would be useful to have a second input regarding quite long alpha intrusions and alpha delta sleep, and any other abnormalities that you may find. I can upload in .EDF format.

I do have a copy of Rembrandt, although I'm unfamiliar with the layout. Is there anyway to use an automatic analyzer on my waveforms, as my version of Remlogic does not support an automated scoring assistance, which would take a huge workload out of manually scoring everything.


Hi Modifier

There are also multiple Alpha intrusions during NREM2, but not enough to warrant an arousal to NREM1


I'm not sure what you mean here - if you have an arousal from N2, then you can score the next epoch as stage N1 (assuming it fits the criteria for N1). If you are scoring N2, then the next epoch looks like N1 then you continue scoring N2 unless there is an intervening arousal.

An arousal is a change in frequency (to a faster frequency) that lasts 3 or more seconds, with 10 seconds of stable sleep beforehand. So you can have an arousal where the patient stays in sleep (the arousal is <15 seconds of the epoch) or an arousal that leads to wake (15 or more seconds of the epoch)

But like Ray says above, those epochs look like wake
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby somnonaut » Wed Mar 14, 2018 10:10 pm

The second epoch does not look fast enough for alpha. Is there any way to just have one tick mark per second, and not the two? Hard to make out freq when looking at timeline with two ticks per second. Or better yet, can you have one vertical dotted line per second? That would give nice clear time line.
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby Modifier1 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:51 pm

Hi Picklish,

You will have to excuse my ignorance, but I'm slightly confused regarding scoring an epoche as wake if there is over 15 seconds of alpha activity. Would that assume that I was awake, i.e as I am now during that 15 second duration?

Could one not produce prolonged alpha activity during sleep, without ever physically waking, outside of stage R?

I'll have to look at the proceeding epoches again and get back to you tomorrow.
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby Modifier1 » Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:58 pm

Somnonaut,

I'll see if I can upload the epoch again with the parameters similar to what you describe tomorrow, and then we can be certain if alpha activity or not.

RayMeece

As above, I'll upload a closer epoch tomorrow to see if true alpha rythym, but does the waveforms in the slow wave look faster than usual? Some of my previous slow waves appeared slightly more textbook example.

Thanks again for your contribution everyone, your sharing of knowledge is appreciated
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby somnonaut » Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:25 am

Modifier1 wrote:Hi Picklish,

You will have to excuse my ignorance, but I'm slightly confused regarding scoring an epoche as wake if there is over 15 seconds of alpha activity. Would that assume that I was awake, i.e as I am now during that 15 second duration?

Could one not produce prolonged alpha activity during sleep, without ever physically waking, outside of stage R?


Not sure I understand what you are asking, but alpha is by definition wake outside of R.
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby picklish » Fri Mar 16, 2018 10:06 am

Modifier1 wrote:Hi Picklish,

You will have to excuse my ignorance, but I'm slightly confused regarding scoring an epoche as wake if there is over 15 seconds of alpha activity. Would that assume that I was awake, i.e as I am now during that 15 second duration?

Could one not produce prolonged alpha activity during sleep, without ever physically waking, outside of stage R?

I'll have to look at the proceeding epoches again and get back to you tomorrow.


The problem is we use terms like "wake", "awake", "conscious" in normal conversation, but when talking about analysing sleep, what we mean is - an EEG state that has the same features as is typically seen when a patient closes their eyes during biocalibrations - eyes steady, relatively high muscle tone, presence of Alpha waves for majority of the time - it's much more specific than a layman understanding of sleep.

So when you say "wake as I am now" - Are you drowsy? Are you half asleep? Have you just woke up? Are you nodding off? - all these phrases get at there's not just one state of "being awake" and that even if you don't remember such awakenings during the night, it doesn't mean to say that, going by biophysiological measures, you were not.
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby somnonaut » Fri Mar 16, 2018 12:10 pm

When trying to determine if EEG is the best determinant of sleep onset, these researchers found that it is, and that the slowing as seen in drop off of alpha with the concomittant rise in theta+delta were the only things that showed loss of consciousness as represented by reaction to their ball squeeze experiment.

Can't upload. Hanging at 2%

Tracking the Sleep Onset Process: An Empirical Model of Behavioral and Physiological Dynamics
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4183428/
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Re: Remlogic: Help regarding scoring events

Postby Modifier1 » Fri Mar 16, 2018 9:37 pm

I suppose that's the issue that I'm having, still using terminology such as 'wake', 'awake', 'conscious' in a way reflective of a loose conversation around sleep, rather than defined by the AASM and other sleep research bodies. I think I'm beginning to get a greater understanding to somnonauts statement, as echoed by others, that sleep is continuous and dynamic by the second. I can't help but feel maybe more is going on, but that's a fairly obvious observation.

It would seem likely that I could have woken up within that >15 second period of alpha activity, in a drowsy or perhaps confused state. Chin amplitude remained low and eyes remained fairly stationary, if not completely. I've uploaded a couple of the proceeding epochs.


Close up of slow waves
close_up.png
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Proceeding epoch after slow waves
following_epoch.png
following_epoch.png (145.48 KiB) Viewed 519 times


Following epoch
following_epoch2.png
following_epoch2.png (146.69 KiB) Viewed 519 times


Close up of alpha/spindles of the above epoch (probably spindles, leaning towards 11hz)
following_epoch2_close_up_of_alpha_spindle.png
following_epoch2_close_up_of_alpha_spindle.png (127.71 KiB) Viewed 519 times



Would these epochs be scored as N2, following the slow wave activity?
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