Free markets in healthcare - ACA

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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby RayMeece » Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:26 am

Just stay on topic, please.
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby somnonaut » Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:20 pm

Another one bites the dust.
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/politics/ ... index.html
https://youtu.be/F24Dgqu_TVI?t=10s

Healthcare CANNOT be a free market.
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby RayMeece » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:16 am

This is a perfect example of WHY I do NOT like surveys and Stats:

The article you posted discusses a poll of 1202 people, and uses that to represent all americans. Seems a little small.

Anyway, it states that 52% disapprove of the bill, while 1 in 5 (20%) approve. What happened to the other 28%?

Then, only 46% of republicans approve. Okay, doing the math, if only 20% of the total is 46% of republicans, Then doesn't that mean that the vast majority of those polled were NOT republican? I think so....

Looking at the ACTUAL posted poll numbers on the CBS website( https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-graha ... acare-aca/ ), it is clear that the numbers are based on party lines, with the independents slightly leaning toward the republicans. No surprise there.

Also, there is a 3% margin of error overall, which could mean that only 49% disapprove. Go figure.
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby RayMeece » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:24 am

I got that backwards, the Independents are leaning towards the Dems
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby RayMeece » Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:53 am

So I have for the last few hours been working on the numbers. I think this is a very poor sampling of "ALL AMERICANS".

Of the 1202 respondents (which are supposedly "random"), there are:

312 Republicans (26%)
396 Democrats (32%)
494 Independents (41%)

Knowing that Democrats would be against it, and Independents prob against it, all simply because it is a Republican bill, the "random sample" sure seems to be heavily weighted against an approval of the bill.

Thats why I hate polls and stats.

Of course, CBS did not disclose any of these numbers at all. But they also said, in the fine print, that the Margin of Error is larger in the different subgroups. WHAT!?!?!?
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby somnonaut » Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:09 pm

LOL, you have not one iota of a clue about how to sample and whom to sample.
Keep trying.
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby RayMeece » Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:17 am

LOL Claude. So you are defending this CBS poll representing ALL AMERICANS, even though the "random sample" doesn't really reflect the population?

Keep trying yourself.
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby somnonaut » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:18 pm

CBS 1.JPG
CBS 1.JPG (98.1 KiB) Viewed 433 times

CBS2.JPG
CBS2.JPG (23.7 KiB) Viewed 433 times


Yup, sounds reasonable.

Try reading till the bottom, before you let your self-indignancy shine thru. I hope you hold the same "standard" to the fauz snooze polls (HAHAHAHA) and the other Rightwing trash heap polls. But of course you will not. IOIYRAR

"This poll was conducted by telephone September 21-24, 2017 among a random sample of 1,202 adults nationwide. Data collection was conducted on behalf of CBS News by SSRS of Glen Mills, PA. Phone numbers were dialed from samples of both standard land-line and cell phones.

The poll employed a random digit dial methodology. For the landline sample, a respondent was randomly selected from all adults in the household. For the cell sample, interviews were conducted with the person who answered the phone. Interviews were conducted in English and Spanish using live interviewers.

The data have been weighted to reflect U.S. Census figures on demographic variables. The sample included additional interviews conducted with African Americans, who had previously completed a survey as part of a random sample. The combined African American and non-African American samples were weighted separately to match their group's population characteristics such as gender, age, education, region, marital status and phone use based on recent U.S. Census estimates. The samples were then combined and weighted to the total U.S. adult population.

The error due to sampling for results based on the entire sample could be plus or minus three percentage points. The error for subgroups may be higher and is available by request. The margin of error includes the effects of standard weighting procedures which enlarge sampling error slightly.

This poll release conforms to the Standards of Disclosure of the National Council on Public Polls."
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby somnonaut » Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:27 pm

Also, one of the comments from the news article:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/poll-graha ... acare-aca/


"As the GOP sits on the precipice of fumbling what will likely be their last ditch effort to "repeal and replace" Obamacare, a study by The Commonwealth Fund found that the U.S., despite spending much more money per capita than any other country on the planet, has the worst health care system on the planet. The Commonwealth Fund focused on evaluating five main areas of the health care system, including care process, access, administrative efficiency, equity and health care outcomes and analyzed 72 indicators within those fields. Of the 11 countries included in the study -- the world's wealthiest -- the U.S. ranked dead last by a staggering margin.

The U.S. spends far more on health care than other high-income countries -- about 150% more on average -- with spending levels that rose dramatically and continuously over the past 3 decades, yet our population has poorer health than all the other wealthy countries.

When will our useless congress critters finally attempt to address these rising costs, instead of trying to take health care away from tens of millions, and give the wealthiest in America even fatter tax cuts than they got under bush?"


http://www.commonwealthfund.org/interac ... nal-survey

[Markup mine]

Also they state: http://www.commonwealthfund.org/interac ... descending

"According to the latest findings from the Biennial Health Insurance Survey, the percentage of people who shopped for insurance on their own who could not find an affordable plan dropped from 60 percent in 2010 to 34 percent in 2016. Among those with health problems, 70 percent said they had trouble finding an affordable plan in 2010, compared to 42 percent in 2016."
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby RayMeece » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:28 am

I read every bit of it Claude, even the fine print you quoted. To me, I see even more weighting AGAINST any republican bill by including a special group of African Americans, who were NOT included in the "random calls" made, but were included in the numbers posted. That is deceitful in itself, but I had originally chosen not to mention it. Now that you have tried to use it to bolster your stance, I will address it. They say nothing about how many were included. Was it 10%? or was it 90% Who knows, but probably leaning more to the latter.

Either way, my point remains solid -- this poll is weighted to slant the way CBS sees things. Heavily, I say again, HEAVILY weighted against the Republican bill, and saying that ALL AMERICANS are represented here.

You can throw out all kinds of other links, and pictures, whatever, my point is the same.
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby RayMeece » Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:36 am

Try reading till the bottom, before you let your self-indignancy shine thru. I hope you hold the same "standard" to the fauz snooze polls (HAHAHAHA) and the other Rightwing trash heap polls. But of course you will not. IOIYRAR


I hold this standard to ALL polls, unlike you. I look to the actual numbers, not the reporters interp for a shocking story. You would do good doing the same.

I have not seen any self-righteous indignation anywhere. The facts are there for anyone to see, if they (you) just look.
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby somnonaut » Wed Nov 01, 2017 8:07 am

Smells like righteous indignation, looks like righteous indignation, walks like righteous indignation, yup, that's righteous indignation.

You are righteously indignant that calling random people according to the methods described led to these results.
Yup, righteous indignation.

So why don't you contact them as they offer.

"This poll was conducted by telephone September 21-24, 2017 among a random sample of 1,202 adults nationwide. Data collection was conducted on behalf of CBS News by SSRS of Glen Mills, PA. Phone numbers were dialed from samples of both standard land-line and cell phones.

The poll employed a random digit dial methodology. For the landline sample, a respondent was randomly selected from all adults in the household. For the cell sample, interviews were conducted with the person who answered the phone. Interviews were conducted in English and Spanish using live interviewers.

The data have been weighted to reflect U.S. Census figures on demographic variables. The sample included additional interviews conducted with African Americans, who had previously completed a survey as part of a random sample. The combined African American and non-African American samples were weighted separately to match their group's population characteristics such as gender, age, education, region, marital status and phone use based on recent U.S. Census estimates. The samples were then combined and weighted to the total U.S. adult population.

The error due to sampling for results based on the entire sample could be plus or minus three percentage points. The error for subgroups may be higher and is available by request. The margin of error includes the effects of standard weighting procedures which enlarge sampling error slightly.

This poll release conforms to the Standards of Disclosure of the National Council on Public Polls."
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby RayMeece » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:14 am

so keep repeating the same thing, you get the same answer, Claude. You have said nothing new in this last post.

I am merely saying that this "scientific" poll, like most polls and results, are weighted to reflect the stance of whomever is conducting it.

They represented that this poll reflects "ALL Americans", but the ones polled, by their political stance, do NOT reflect all americans. Maybe they called everyone in San Fransisco, or New York.

I betcha, if they called 1202 peolple from, say, Mississippi, the numbers would be substantially different.
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby RayMeece » Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:16 am

somnonaut wrote:Smells like righteous indignation, looks like righteous indignation, walks like righteous indignation, yup, that's righteous indignation.

You are righteously indignant that calling random people according to the methods described led to these results.
Yup, righteous indignation.


No righteous indignation on my side of this argument, maybe yours. I am simply stating the FACTS, as I read them on this poll. I don't blindly take what the reporter has said.

Maybe you should re-read the definition of righteous indignation.
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Re: Free markets in healthcare - ACA

Postby somnonaut » Mon Nov 06, 2017 7:17 pm

You truly have no idea what random means, do you?
"This poll was conducted by telephone September 21-24, 2017 among a random sample of 1,202 adults nationwide."

If they were to only call Mississippians then it would not be "nationwide." UGH

"A mind is a terrible thing to waste."
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