advice about sandman elite and emblaS4000

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advice about sandman elite and emblaS4000

Postby Maha » Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:38 pm

which is better ?
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Postby theboyns1 » Mon Jun 30, 2008 11:35 pm

Sandman is much more user friendly. If I was buying a system it would be Sandman Elite. Somno takes 3 times as long to score.
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Postby Canadian Sleep Tech » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:05 am

Sandman is better than both the Somno and Rembrandt systems and I have worked with all 3. However price point may be an issue and there I would still say chose Sandman but of the 2 Embla software platforms I do prefer Rembrandt, it is close to Sandman but it was originally written by the same person that wrote the original Sandman dos software.
It is going to be interesting to see what happens now that Embla has bought out Sandman from Tyco/Covidien.
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Postby somnonaut » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:07 am

Canadian Sleep Tech wrote:...Rembrandt, it is close to Sandman but it was originally written by the same person that wrote the original Sandman dos software.


huh?

Ovid Bailey wrote Sandman and Anand Kumar in Amsterdam wrote Rembrandt, AFAIK, being the first Rembrandt user in the U.S. Anand spent two nights in my lab setting up the system back in 1997. We still keep in touch. I know they both used the Lamont amps from Australia at first, and I still have those (not functioning), they are going in my museum in my new office.
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Postby linuxgeek » Fri Sep 25, 2009 5:14 am

somnonaut wrote:
Canadian Sleep Tech wrote:...Rembrandt, it is close to Sandman but it was originally written by the same person that wrote the original Sandman dos software.


huh?

Ovid Bailey wrote Sandman and Anand Kumar in Amsterdam wrote Rembrandt, AFAIK, being the first Rembrandt user in the U.S. Anand spent two nights in my lab setting up the system back in 1997. We still keep in touch. I know they both used the Lamont amps from Australia at first, and I still have those (not functioning), they are going in my museum in my new office.


Some of the early Sandman programmers I believe moved to Medcare Rembrandt many years ago, but I don't think from the beginning.

I'm pretty sure Ovid Bailey did not write Sandman. He was there early on, but I don't think he knows how to program in C or C++ (what Sandman is written in). The only coder I really remember at Sandman was Jean-Pierre Semery, and I think he's at EBNeuro in Italy now. He was the one who gave me a Developer's Kit so I could write my own modules.
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Postby Neil » Fri Sep 25, 2009 10:58 am

Ovid did not write Sandman.

Jean Pierre is not at EBNeuro - he's still in Ottawa, but as of last week, like myself, is no longer with Sandman.

Oscar is correct. A number of the Sandman coders did go to Embla when they set up shop in the US. In fact, the Embla boss is one of the original Sandman bods.

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who wrote Sandman DOS?

Postby RBonato » Fri Sep 25, 2009 11:19 am

Neil and Oscar are correct that Ovid Bailey did not write Sandman DOS. The person that wrote the original code was Don Bradley, who is now Co-Founder and Chief Technology Officer at BRAEBON. I met Don in October 1991 at the Royal Ottawa Sleep Disorders Laboratory and we explained we needed something to record our PSG data to get off of paper. We discussed what we needed and lots of dialog back and forth. By December 1991 he came back one night with an old Toshiba luggable (calling it a laptop would be an misnomer) which had an Intel 80386 CPU (no 80387 math coprocessor) and plopped it down, hooked it up to J6 outputs from the Grass amps and said, "I need to collect some data so I can play with the display features. It'll run for about 3 hours until the hard drive fills up. I'll be back at 7 to pick it up." And that is how it all started. I was the first person in the world to use it, but you gotta note that it wasn't even called Sandman yet. The executives at Melville Shipping realized there was indeed a market here and they wanted to call it "Sleep", but we said you can't call it that because it would be like calling a new car "Car". So they looked at "Siesta" as a name, but there was some other software out there with that name and they ended up with Sandman. Ovid Bailey was the Director of Sales hired after Mike Clark, who was the first salesperson. Jean-Pierre Semery was one of the programmers reporting to Don at the time all of this was going on.
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Postby somnonaut » Fri Sep 25, 2009 12:13 pm

OK, so Medcare had Rembrandt already written before it came to the U.S., so it was not the same people who wrote Sandman, who wrote Rembrandt. From what I can make of the timeline.
"A number of the Sandman coders did go to Embla when they set up shop in the US."
I purchased the first system in the U.S. and it was for a system, not the pormise to be written system. My hospital had done that earlier with CNS, buying the mental end point of Dan Cohen's concept, and we kept getting hardware and software upgrades to get to the final realization of a digitizable recording and analysis system.
Still miss that CASS.
That too will be in the museum. I have a Sleep I/T and SL2000 headbox. and manuals.

Oh man I am gonna shed a tear or two when I go through the piled up crap in my lab
#42 can tell ya., there is history in them thar shelves.
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Postby Neil » Fri Sep 25, 2009 2:06 pm

My apologies to Don and Rick. I confused the Embla's David Baker with Don Bradley. That was a stupid mistake for me to make; especially given I do know better. I would note that David Baker did also work at Sandman prior to heading over to Embla.

Also, I wasn't trying to imply David Baker or his cohorts wrote the original Embla software, merely that they had worked for Sandman before moving across to Embla.

Apologies for the mistakes and confusion.

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Postby linuxgeek » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:56 pm

Thanks for the history lesson.

Kudos to Don, Sandman DOS was a pretty cool product. I remember someone telling me about how good Sandman was and I kinda blew it off, cause I had assessed so many systems at the time (including a Mac-based system). That, and the fact that there was no decent amps at the time (you had to use Grass to get a quality signal). This was the one thing going for Bio-Logic at the time. They had really good miniature amps that were comparable to Grass amps.

When, I finally got around to checking out Sandman, it was clearly some pretty cool software. It had features that are still missing in the Sandman Windows version.
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Postby Canadian Sleep Tech » Fri Sep 25, 2009 3:56 pm

There seems to have been so many different stories about the set up of both Sandman and Rembrandt. Embla came into being after Somnologica bought the company. David Baker was then appointed as COO of the company, still MedCare at that point. I knew that Don had been involved in the set up of Sandman and was the person who owned the Rembrandt system before it was bought out not also part of the orginal Sandman group, sorry for the life of me I cannot remember his name. At NYGH we were the first people to use Sandman's own amplifiers, they were pre-production models and hand built by an individual/company in Kitchener/Waterloo in Ontario. I remember David Baker and I soldering a jump box together, blowing on it to cool it and then seconds later using it with the piece of equipment attached to a patient. Today we would be run out of town for doing the same things Snoring mics we built from parts from Radio Shack, Bio-Med would kill us for even thinking such things today.

Oh and Claude the original Sandman MSDOS system had the ability to place score and wake tags anywhere on the recording, I would often do this with our CHF and MS patients to capture all of the respiratory events, and it gave a truer indication of real sleep time, why we stuck with 30 second epochs when we went digital I will never know, the 30 second epoch was only used in paper to make counting sleep time easier.
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Postby Canadian Sleep Tech » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:04 pm

And quickly back to the original question, compare the Embla S7000 to Sandman elite if you are going to do a comparison. The expanded system from Embla is closer to the Elite. The S4000 is more akin to the Sandman basic system, and there is so much more that you can do with the expanded amps and headboxes. The one thing I definately do not like about the Embla system is the amp in the headbox, one drop into the toilet by a sleepy patient at 3 am and it gets expensive. Much better and cheaper to have the headbox as an empty shell. We keep a spare Sandman headbox around just incase. Could not afford to do that with Embla.
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Postby somnonaut » Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:04 pm

LG says: "(including a Mac-based system)."

I think it was called BIOHM. I was shown the system hush, hush in the back of an APSS conference once in the early 90's. I remembered it fully when I first laid eyes on Somnologica, as Somnologica looked almost exactly like it, little hand cursor and all.

Iain I agree with the need to place events wherever they ocurr, not in pre-conceived approved places. The software is what should take care of all the event tabulations. Sleep, wake whatever
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Postby linuxgeek » Fri Sep 25, 2009 8:43 pm

somnonaut wrote:LG says: "(including a Mac-based system)."

I think it was called BIOHM. I was shown the system hush, hush in the back of an APSS conference once in the early 90's. I remembered it fully when I first laid eyes on Somnologica, as Somnologica looked almost exactly like it, little hand cursor and all.


That sounds familiar, but I can't recall exactly. It's possible I have an old Mac somewhere that has it installed.
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Postby MrBig » Sat Sep 26, 2009 1:26 pm

Man, you guys nerded-out hardcore in this thread. lol
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